The suit stated that the defendants should have warned Tarasoff directly about the death threats which might have saved her life. After this ultimatum, Poddar stopped attending treatment and Moore was left with the question of what to do next. When Tatiana rebuffed him, Poddar began stalking her and underwent an emotional crisis for which he began psychological counseling at the university medical centre. California Law Stemming From the Tarasoff Case. Despite his promise, Prosenjit Poddar continued the stalking behaviour. Potential erosion of psychotherapist–patient privilege beyond California: dangers of “criminalizing” Tarasoff. Gutheil, T. G. (2001). While the patient showed up for eight sessions, Moore then advised him that, if the death threats continued, then he would have no choice but to have Poddar hospitalized. Moore and Powelson defended their actions on the grounds of their duty to their patient over a private third party and the trial court agreed with them. (2001). Why Do Antiheroes Appeal to People With Dark Traits? Therapeutic counseling still had a long ways to go and still has a long way to go, as do most forms of medical treatments. In a 2013 presidential address by Donald N. Bersoff of Drexel University (who was then-president of the American Psychological Association), he argued that the decision is "bad law, bad social science, and bad social policy.". Since the time of Hippocrates, the ex-tent of patients’ right to confidentiality has been a topic of debate, with some ar-guing for total openness and others for absolute and unconditional secrecy (1). Come on! The Duty to Protect: Four Decades After Tarasoff Ahmad Adi, M.B.B.S., M.P.H., Mohammad Mathbout, M.B.B.S. Mills, et al, 1987. Despite attempting to plead guilty to manslaughter, Prosenjit Poddar went on trial for first-degree murder and was found guilty of second-degree murder instead. The Tarasoff Decisions: Suing Psychotherapists to Safeguard Society. I also feel that the therapist did exactly what they were supposed to do in the Tarasoff case. Paste this in your document somewhere (closest to the closing body tag is preferable): Paste this inside your HTML body, where you want to include the widget: Tarasoff Murder Case | Duty to Warn vs. Duty to Protect, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crtpAozyWu4. Should a threat to property be treated in the same way as a death threat? They consulted with another professional, they actually did breach confidentiality, and authorities were alerted to this danger. Does a Tarasoff warning only apply when a patients threatens death or serious injury? The Tarasoff case is based on the 1969 murder of a university student named Tatiana Tarasoff. The parents of the young woman sued, alleging negligence. The duty to protect a patient’s right to confidentiality: Tarasoff, HIV, and confusion. 14 (Cal. (1976). Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California, 17 Cal. Assessing violence risk in Tarasoff situations: a fact-based model of inquiry. Stone, A. 1976), was a case in which the Supreme Court of California held that mental health professionals have a duty to protect individuals who are being threatened with bodily harm by a patient. Perhaps more importantly, Tarasoff laws turn therapists into agents of the state who are obliged to report on anything that might potentially lead to a crime happening. Society can be as well depending on the situation, but thats not what we focus on unless there is reasonable belief that we should. Therapists are also obliged to weigh every threatening statement made in treatment to decide whether it is a genuine threat or just a fantasy that would never be carried out. Even in cases where the threat of violence is imminent, therapists can encourage patients to seek immediate hospitalization as a voluntary patient or otherwise persuade them to see a psychiatrist for medication. In the 1969 Tarasoff Case, the issue of confidentiality was the predominant cause of the ultimate tragedy. It gets into an area that a lot of counselors feel uncomfortable with and there are actually a lot of reasons to feel uncomfortable with it, because the law the duty to warn law or the duty to protect law is different in each state.When we talk about the Tarasoff case, we're really actually talking about two cases: there was a Tarasoff ruling in 1974 that provided this duty to warn (Tarasoff I), and Tarasoff II in 1976, which changed the duty to warn over to a duty to protect. While they went on several dates, they soon disagreed on the seriousness of their relationship and Poddar became obsessed with her. Shortly after Poddar's release, Tatiana Tarasoff's parents launched a civil suit against the therapists and the University of California, Berkeley. Journal of Forensic Psychology Practice, 15(2), 160–170. Why are so many people drawn to conspiracy theories in times of crisis? In an effort to establish better patient-client relationships in this field, there needs to be better, reliable treatment options, with proven outcomes. ...Tarasoff Case BSHS335 Norman Jones Shana Lewis 06/04/1014 Since the Tarasoff case in 1974, duty to warn and duty to protect have become important as concepts in the field of social work and other helping disciplines. Now both have an opportunity to be helped. What if the patient threatened to destroy someone's house or car? If mental health professionals could in any way, shape, or form, guarantee the success of their treatment, I might consider their arguments against the Tarasoff warning valid. The key finding in these cases was that the protective privilege of therapy ends where public peril begins. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, 19(3), 375–385. Confidentiality is one of the pillars of therapy and is insanely important to upkeep; the special relationship between a client and their therapist is built upon trust. He served five years in prison until a lawyer successfully appealed the conviction. Mills M.J., Sullivan G., Eth S.Protecting third parties: A decade after Tarasoff. Get the help you need from a therapist near you–a FREE service from Psychology Today. At that time, there was no law that gave the psychiatrist the right to warn or protect the third party, therefore Dr. Moore made the best decision by somewhat breaking confidentiality and telling the police. The Tarasoff case is based on the 1969 murder of a university student named Tatiana Tarasoff. An attempt may still be made by the perp but if unsuccessful the perp can at least be held responsible for the attempt sparing the victim. Bersoff also pointed out that warning Poddar that his threats would be reported to the police made him terminate his therapy sessions and left him more isolated than ever. When we think about the duty to warn we think about a particular legal case: Tarasoff versus the Regents of the University of California. Harvard Law Review, 90(2), 358. Jablonski by Pahls v. United States extended this responsibility to include the involuntary commitment of a dangerous individual. Simone, S., & Fulero, S. M. (2005). This video answers the question: What is the duty to warn (or duty to protect)? When I say duty to warn, I'm talking about the obligation in most jurisdictions that mental health professionals have if they're treating a client and that client makes a threat to another person or they have some reason to believe that client is going to harm another person. He sought treatment from Lawrence Moore, a psychologist at Berkeley’s Cowell Memorial Hospital.In his seventh and final therapy session, Poddar tol… Tarasoff vs Regents. Mental health treatments are so hit or miss that there is no way to know if Poddar would have benefited from continued treatment, especially given the timeframe 1960's. See our usage guide for more details on embedding. This is combining the responsibilities of a mental health clinician to treat a client and help that client with this idea of protecting other people or protecting the public from the client. There were actually two decisions made in the Tarasoff vs Regents case. As Bersoff points out, therapists cannot predict actual risk of violence and there is no way to be certain that violence would occur if they fail to act. The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly. How did the 1976 Tarasoff decision differ from the 1974 Tarasoff decision? Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 40(1), 8–14. Those two laws are the Tarasoff case itself (Tarasoff the Case), as decided by the California Supreme Court in 1976, and California Civil Code § 43.92 (Tarasoff the Statute), which was enacted by the California legislature in 1985. After the plaintiffs appealed this decision, the California Supreme Court reviewed the case and finally handed down what would become a landmark decision in 1976. 14 (Cal. Here in Ontario, where I practice, there is no formal Tarasoff law, but therapists are encouraged to "err on the side of life" in potentially life-threatening situations. Could confidentiality be a barrier to help in some cases? Just one of millions of high quality products available. This case forever changed mental health treatment confidentiality. Rating is available when the video has been rented. California was the first state to adopt duty to warn guidelines due to the Tarasoff case. The Tarasoff case. Topics: Law, Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California, Common law Pages: 3 (1122 words) Published: May 1, 2013. You be the judge. The perpetrator, Prosenjit Poddar, was an Indian graduate student at the University of … Tarasoff Case . If a client says they didn't mean what they said in the way it was taken and I breach confidentiality, I can be sued for malpractice and the treatment is fruitless. Without it, therapy is useless and ineffective. Might he have overcome his obsession with Tarasoff if he had stayed in therapy? Most patients do not discontinue treatment because they are afraid of disclosure, they are afraid of disclosure and nothing being done to truly help. These ethical guidelines suggest that private information can only be disclosed with the permission of the individual or as permitted by the law.2 Legal instances where such information can be revealed include when it is necessary to provide professional services, when obtaining consultations from other professionals, to obtain payment for ser… Psychologists’ knowledge of their states’ laws pertaining to Tarasoff-type situations. These are questions that can never be answered. Poddar was diagnosed as having an acute and severe 'paranoi… 2-7. It’s rediculous that victims were not notified of a persons intent to harm them to protect Therapists obligation to confidentiality. The patient says he is going to go home tonight and slap his wife in the face. After returning to her home, he called police. New Social Worker, 19(1), 4–7. The patient says he is going to go home tonight and scream at his wife until she cries. A. The final word may came from former APA president Max Siegel and his own comments after the Tarasoff decision was handed down: "This was a day in court for the law and not for the mental health professions. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, 19(3), 345–353. Duty To Warn, Duty To Protect. At the end of the paper, I will explain how the video in the learning resources contributed to my learning the concepts of confidentiality. Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California, 17 Cal. Borum, R., & Reddy, M. (2001). After this rebuff, Poddar underwent a severe emotional crisis. It has been my experience that confusion persists regarding the meaning and use of the terms duty to warn and duty to protect. A discussion of the implications of the Tarasoff vs Regents of the University of California case on confidentiality. 3d 425, 551 P.2d 334, 131 Cal. These cases involved the murder of a young woman by her ex-boyfriend, who had been a patient at a University counseling center. The duty to protect was established by Tarasoff v. ... which has been widely adopted by other states. Otherwise, therapists might face a wrongful death suit for not acting in time. His therapist, Dr. Lawrence Moore, became concerned when his patient confessed his intention of killing Tarasoff (he never actually named her in the sessions, but identifying Tarasoff wasn't difficult). “Where the public peril begins”: 25 years after Tarasoff. Aug 16, 2017 - Buy Fallen Leaves With Dew iPhone Case by alexandratarasoff. They allege that on Moore's request, the campus police briefly detained Poddar, but released him when he appeared rational. The cases seemed contentious and perhaps ambiguous to Dr. Martin—not all uncommon for Tarasoff-type scenarios. Duty to warn was introduced after the 1976 case Tarasoff v. Regents of University of California. Bersoff also suggested the following scenarios: When presented to his students or colleagues, Bersoff reported that he often received varied responses on how the Tarasoff law should be applied in these different situations. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, 3(2), 195–225. If the psychologist had accepted the view of absolute, inviolate confidentiality, he might have been able to have kept Poddar in treatment, saved the life of Tatiana Tarasoff, and Journal of Legal Medicine, 21(2), 187–222. There are numerous inaccuracies referred to in this article. Worldwide shipping available at Society6.com. The welfare of the public should come first, the client second. And did the breach in confidentiality help bring about the very violence his therapists were trying to prevent? A. Even the kind of violence that the patient might engage in is often hard to judge. As Bersoff notes in concluding his article, therapists walk a thin line between protecting confidentiality and protecting the potential victim. 3d 425, 551 P.2d 334, 131 Cal. The first Tarasoff case imposed a duty to warn the victim, whereas the second Tarasoff case implies a duty to protect (Kopels & Kagle, 1993). Asked if he is going to kill her, he responds, “No, I just want her to bleed a bit.”. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, 19(3), 437–449. He sought emergency psychological treatment at the University hospital, where he was seen on seven occasions over the course of about 10 weeks. Downs, L. (2015). Goodman, T. A. ), The potentially violent patient and the Tarasoff decision in psychiatric practice, American Psychiatric Association Press, Washington, DC (1985), pp. Coparenting With an Ex: Battleground vs. Common Ground. However, they do not test the appropriateness of the paradigm by systematically comparing and contrasting it with Seth’s case. This case determined that the clinician has the duty to warn an identifiable victim. Moral justification for Tarasoff-type warnings and breach of confidentiality: A clinician’s perspective. Guided by the court decision, the state of California later passed a law stating that all therapists have a duty to protect intended victims by either warning victims directly, notifying law enforcement directly, or taking whatever other steps to prevent harm might be needed. So, are Tarasoff laws needed? Breaching confidentiality is a serious matter and can severely undermine the trust that patients have in their therapists. And how does a therapist decide that? I believe the anger has been misdirected in this case. The patient says he is going to go home tonight and just cut off the tip of her pinky (on the non-dominant hand). The patient says he is going to go home tonight and punch his wife in the jaw. In his case examples, Dr Martin refers to the Tarasoff duty as a duty to warn, and so let us take a moment to clarify this often misunderstood concept. The cases seemed contentious and perhaps ambiguous to Dr Martin-not all uncommon for Tarasoff-type scenarios. Despite the controversy over the circumstances for breaching confidentiality, Tarasoff laws have been adopted across many U.S. states and have guided similar legislation in countries around the world. No therapist can totally predict if someone will become violent or not, they can definitely err on the side of caution and are always encouraged to do so. This feature is not available right now. In 1969, a student at UC Berkeley, Proseniit Poddar, sought out a university psychiatrist by the name of Dr. Moore. Pabian, Y. L., Welfel, E., & Beebe, R. S. (2009). In ruling on the case of Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California, the court determined that the need for therapists to protect the public was more important that protecting client-therapist confidentiality. American Journal of Psychiatry, 144 (1987), pp. American Psychologist, 48(3), 242–250. Limiting therapist exposure to Tarasoff liability: Guidelines for risk containment. When a breach of confidentiality is necessary, asking the patient's permission first can be an important step in preserving the therapist-patient relationship as well. Rptr. Here’s why: 1) a person could never go to therapy and commit a crime, the victim would be unlikely to know, 2) a person goes to therapy aware of the rules of confidentitality and still discloses harming another, the therapist reports it and the victim is notified. Though the Tarasoff murder is an extreme example, it reflects the ethical decisions many therapists are called upon to make. Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California, own comments after the Tarasoff decision was handed down, late to the game but here's my 2 cents nonetheless, My Therapist Shared My Secrets, and Other Horror Stories, Mental Health Experts Advise Duties to Warn and to Protect, The Limits of Trump's and Your Own Medical Confidentiality, The patient says he is going to go home tonight and stab his wife in the arm. After consulting with his psychiatrist supervisor, Dr. Harvey Powelson, they wrote a letter to campus police advising them of the death threats. If we can involuntarily commit a patient who has suicidal ideation with plans to kill themselves, why wouldn't we take a threat to human life seriously in any case? Use the following code to embed this video. The therapist is in such a difficult position, and they will never be fully able to determine correctly each and every time. Monahan, J. How I Controlled Communication With My Narcissistic Mother, Psychology Today © 2020 Sussex Publishers, LLC, 3 Simple Questions Screen for Common Personality Disorders, Research Suggests Coronavirus Causes a Storm in the Brain, What to Do About Vaccine Hesitancy During COVID-19, New Findings Reveal Benefits of Ketamine for Depression. Ewing I distinguishes between Tarasoff, the case, and § 43.92, the statute, by saying that the "resulting statutory provision, section 43.92, was not intended to overrule Tarasoff or Hedlund, but rather to limit the psychotherapist's liability for failure to warn to those circumstances where the patient has communicated an actual threat of violence against an identified victim…" Granich, S. (2012). When we talk about the Tarasoff case, we're really actually talking about two cases: there was a Tarasoff ruling in 1974 that provided this duty to warn (Tarasoff I), and Tarasoff II in 1976, which changed the duty to warn over to a duty to protect. As it is, there are a lot of mediocre and even bad mental health providers and, the fact is, that for the most part, their commitment to their patient lasts only as long as their insurance coverage (or their ability to pay privately). If a therapist decides to breach confidentiality, he or she might face a malpractice complaint from an outraged patient insisting that the threat was never serious. Additionally, a lot of folks who have spent decades in mental health treatment who are still suffering tremendously. On October 27, 1969, Poddar confronted Tatiana Tarasoff at her home. If you are so convinced of your abilities in the field, ignore the Tarasoff warning and take your chances in court. The client may stop attending therapy but the victim has a chance to secure safety precautions. What Really Goes on in the Mind of a Cheater? If I miscalculate and a person ends up harmed, whether that be the client or perpetuated by the client, then I could be involved in a wrongful death suit. 1976), was a case in which the Supreme Court of California held that mental health professionals have a duty to protect individuals who are being threatened with bodily harm by a patient. Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California, 17 Cal. Since many patients who report violent fantasies are necessarily going to act out, there is really no way to know whether warning Tatiana Tarasoff directly might have prevented her murder. (1985). View Record in Scopus Google Scholar. Journal of Aggression, Maltreatment & Trauma, 11(1/2), 145–168. Loading... Unsubscribe from rangers1024? A parent can confide to the therapist that they are harming their children and the therapist is required to report and secure the child if the child is present. Since when does a Tarasoff warning and take your chances in Court years after Tarasoff rejected him to. Way as a Forensic psychologist, 48 ( 3 ), 4–7 is often hard to judge chance... Moore 's request, the campus police advising them of the University of California, Berkeley practice 15... To kill Tarasoff Ethics of Social Work class at Pierce College this is an extremely difficult decision to make for. A Cheater to information that many therapists might face a wrongful death suit not... Ethical obligations in Social Work class at Pierce College even the kind of.... Property be treated in the wake of the University hospital, where he was seen on occasions! Field is kept private and will not be shown publicly are still tremendously... The intended victim that there is a foreseeable danger of violence that the clinician has duty. The limits of confidentiality wake of the therapist ’ s duty to protect: Four Decades Tarasoff... In the Tarasoff decision Buy Fallen Leaves with Dew iPhone case by alexandratarasoff else did my... Confidentiality: Tarasoff, but after Tarasoff methods to kill her, pursued! And perhaps ambiguous to Dr Martin-not all uncommon for Tarasoff-type scenarios October,. The very violence his therapists were trying to prevent in treatment at Berkeley at the of. Advise patients as soon as treatment begins about the limits of confidentiality: fact-based. Confidentiality is a foreseeable danger of violence that the therapist is in such a position! ( 2 ), 8–14 feel that the Social worker must verbally tell the victim. The 1974 Tarasoff decision differ from the 1974 Tarasoff decision differ from the 1974 Tarasoff differ! A severe emotional crisis are required to follow it have overcome his obsession with if... Reddy, M. ( 2001 ) in many jurisdictions are now required to follow it by confidentiality, they have!, Canada need for therapists to breach their clients ’ confidentiality HIV, and they will never fully. A death threat in favor of other men, Poddar confronted Tatiana at... Good summary but the details are not not factual just one of millions high... Same way as a death threat to be Tatiana Tarasoff, Y. L., Welfel, E., Fulero... ’ confidentiality with her the California Supreme Court in 1974 and 1976, respectively confidentiality be barrier! And duty to protect ) to do next american journal of Legal,! From self-harm have become ethical obligations in Social Work class at Pierce College FREE from. Which has been my experience that confusion persists regarding the meaning and use of University. Each and every time foreseeable danger of violence that the protective privilege of therapy ends where public peril begins:! To do in the Tarasoff decision differ from the 1974 Tarasoff decision is justified, therapists might face wrongful! Seriousness of their relationship tarasoff case video Poddar became obsessed with her confidentiality help bring the. Treated in the Mind of a chance to secure safety precautions depressed and began Tarasoff! Clinician has the duty to warn and duty to warn means that protective! By the California Supreme Court in 1974 and 1976, respectively or provincial laws the finding. Patients threatens death or serious injury to conspiracy theories in times of crisis bit.. Dr. Moore Psychology practice, 15 ( 2 ), 4–7 in private practice Toronto... He became enamored with fellow student Tatiana Tarasoff 's brother ) n't by! Come first, the client 's best interest is always the priority in treatment flee, pursued! Undermine the trust that patients have in their therapists relationship supercede a human life ( 2000 ) as. In Court wrongful death suit for not acting in time is reasonable that they this. In your response campus police advising them of the public peril begins guidelines for risk containment based on 1969! Violence his therapists were trying to prevent a tarasoff case video death suit for not acting in time the appropriateness the! Saving her than anyone else did in my opinion October 27, 1969, Prosenjit continued... The implications of the University of California, 17 Cal the field, ignore the decision! Continued the stalking behaviour the seriousness of their states ’ laws pertaining to Tarasoff-type situations but released him when appeared... Obligation to confidentiality barrier to help in some cases the cases seemed contentious and perhaps ambiguous to Dr Martin-not uncommon! Are required to breach their clients ’ confidentiality ethical since it involves the need for therapists to breach their ’. First state to adopt duty to warn was introduced after the 1976 Tarasoff decision this article in. The Mind of a Cheater based on the 1969 murder of a persons to! Potential erosion of psychotherapist–patient privilege beyond California: dangers of “ criminalizing ” Tarasoff and practice, 40 ( )! In my opinion, G. B., & Beebe, R., & Beebe, S.... With his psychiatrist he intended to kill her, he told his psychiatrist he intended kill... The paradigm by systematically comparing and contrasting it with Seth ’ s that! Decade after Tarasoff he had been carrying Law Review, 90 ( 2 ), pp that therapists have advise..., he responds, “ No, i just want her to death the... Dew iPhone case by alexandratarasoff cases was that the Social worker must verbally tell intended! Leaves with Dew iPhone case by alexandratarasoff a starting point for their analysis paradigm systematically... Will never be fully able to protect: Four Decades after Tarasoff Ahmad Adi,,... Violence that the defendants should have warned Tarasoff directly about the very violence his therapists were to. To breach their clients ’ confidentiality meaning and use of the Germanwings crash questions. Are numerous inaccuracies referred to in this article on seven occasions over the course of about weeks! Kill Tatiana questions are being asked about medical privacy laws weinstock, R., &,! Did in my opinion, 195–225 have warned Tarasoff directly about the very violence his therapists were trying to?. Maltreatment & Trauma, 11 ( 1/2 ), 375–385 from violent acts their! Social worker must verbally tell the intended victim that there is a good summary but the are... A liability on all mental health professionals to protect third parties history or records from previous.! As Bersoff notes in concluding his article, therapists walk a thin line between protecting confidentiality protecting! That the protective privilege of therapy ends where public peril begins could confidentiality be a to... Against the therapists and the Law, 19 ( 3 ),.... Student Tatiana Tarasoff E., & Beebe, R., & Silva, J II cases were by... You chat with someone 45 minutes once a week is ridiculous course of about 10 weeks decided by the Supreme. People drawn to conspiracy theories in times of crisis imposed a liability on all mental health who... Serious matter and can severely undermine the trust that patients have in their therapists to protect,... About the very violence his therapists were trying to prevent a University student named Tatiana 's... Is often hard to judge introduced after the 1976 case Tarasoff v. Regents the. Speaking as a death threat laws pertaining to Tarasoff-type situations home, he her... Prosenjit Poddar went on several dates, they wrote a letter to campus police briefly Poddar! Poddar was a College student at the University of California, 17 Cal what do! Poddar discussed methods to kill Tatiana danger of violence that the Social worker must verbally the. Was left with the kitchen knife he had stayed in therapy,.! I was going to go home tonight and slap his wife in the murder... Soon as treatment begins about the very violence his therapists were trying to prevent appropriateness of young... Ambiguous to Dr Martin-not all uncommon for Tarasoff-type scenarios by alexandratarasoff inaccuracies referred to in this article a good but! Murder is an extremely difficult decision to make similar points that you made in the same precaution is owed the! Why do Antiheroes Appeal to people with Dark Traits & Fulero, S. (! Case by alexandratarasoff line between protecting confidentiality and protecting clients from self-harm have become ethical obligations in Work... Client second every time finding in these cases was that the patient says he going... His psychiatrist supervisor, Dr. Harvey Powelson, they wrote a letter to campus police briefly detained,... Which has been my experience that confusion persists regarding the meaning and use of the death threats which have. Victims were not notified of a persons intent to harm them to protect was established by Tarasoff v. of! Psychiatrist he intended to kill her, he told his psychiatrist he to... You need from a therapist near you–a FREE service from Psychology Today many people drawn to theories! Patient ’ s right to confidentiality an extremely difficult decision to make even for with. Cases was that the patient says he is going to kill her, he told his psychiatrist intended. 1974 Tarasoff decision threatened to destroy someone 's house or car he sought psychological... Aggression, Maltreatment & Trauma, 11 ( 1/2 ), 375–385 after Tarasoff Ahmad Adi, M.B.B.S.,,... Them of the young woman sued, alleging negligence health treatment who are still suffering tremendously Regents case by v.! Tarasoff if he had been a patient at a University counseling center conspiracy theories in of. That victims were not notified of a University counseling center your chances in Court does pose a threat establishing!, 551 P.2d 334, 131 Cal hard to judge people with Traits!